Waitman Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Well sure--I write and edit for a living, too. (Not food, though, because I'm not particularly good at it.) But is it so hard to say it's "a pepper sauce" rather than--EVERY TIME--"a sauce enlivened by peppers"? (Add this one to the peeve list, dmwine!) And if you're just talking word count, I've found most of the painful descriptors actually add column inches anyway, so no juice there. It's is indeed possible to do this without sucking all the life out of it--I mean, read Bruni or Bauer. These guys write engaging, terrific reviews with nary a lap, nap, or tuck to be found. I don't want to pile on; I actually have very little problem with his reviews, opinion-wise. I'm just picky about professional writing and find them hard to read at times. Bruni! Now that's a guy whose a parody of himself. He may not lap, nap or tuck, but he has his own twitches, too. I respectfully disagree on the descriptors. I think that, more often than not, they are an attempt to smoosh several words into one. "Lapped" instead of "sitting in." And a pepper sauce is different from a non-pepper sauce that has, nonetheless, been "enlivened." Ha. Should have known you were a writer/editor. There are few people in the world (and I am one, just not regarding Tom) who can get this exercized at that level of detail, who aren't in the biz. At the next Rox bash we can get together and argue infinitive-splitting and adjective abuse over whatever wine DNWine reccomends. This post has been edited because it's being read by an editor and I still can't type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLK Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 The reason I sympathize is that -- having written a few reviews for various boards and the kind of low-rent publications that pay by the word and fire good editors -- I think there's a finite, and not particularly large, number of food-friendly adjectives. That on-line thesaurus only takes you so far.You took the words right out of my mouth. Hello, Rich, if you're reading. Although I have also said "If Tom uses 'haunting' one more time..." I try to stop myself from completing the thought because it really is hard. Yes, it's Tom's career, but he writes about food and there is a somewhat-limited vocabulary (which he stretches) that comes with this specific territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stretch Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 There are few people in the world (and I am one, just not regarding Tom) who can get this exercized at that level of detail, who aren't in the biz.Honestly, regarding the general state of restaurant criticism, can there be another quasi-journalistic endeavour more ripe for a Gonzo-style reinvention? Is there any other area of artistic expression where the grittiness of the average practitioner is more distantly removed from the prissiness of the average critic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Danny Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Honestly, regarding the general state of restaurant criticism, can there be another quasi-journalistic endeavour more ripe for a Gonzo-style reinvention? Is there any other area of artistic expression where the grittiness of the average practitioner is more distantly removed from the prissiness of the average critic?Gritty v. Prissy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Danny Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Honestly, regarding the general state of restaurant criticism, can there be another quasi-journalistic endeavour more ripe for a Gonzo-style reinvention? Is there any other area of artistic expression where the grittiness of the average practitioner is more distantly removed from the prissiness of the average critic?But there really is no 'average' practitioner; nor is there an 'average' critic. Are you calling, say, Ann Cashion, 'gritty'? Or, say, Tom Sietsema, 'prissy'? Just curious Unfortunately, restaurant criticism and food writing in general are genre writing, and, like, say, science-fiction, or horror, very few can transcend its limitations. What annoys me more is when reviewers feel the need to spend time talking about a menu item that isn't going to be available for six months! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stretch Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 I stand, as ever, by both my inadequate analogies and insulting over-generalizations. But I think we are on the same page with respect to the limitations of the genre, as you so much more artfully defined the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Danny Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Bruni! Now that's a guy whose a parody of himself. He may not lap, nap or tuck, but he has his own twitches, too.Trash Bruni all you want, but at least read Bruni's NYT review of Lonesome Dove from Wednesday, and compare to TS review of JHS. 'Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Trash Bruni all you want, but at least read Bruni's NYT review of Lonesome Dove from Wednesday, and compare to TS review of JHS. 'Nuff said.So you're asking us to choose between theatrically overblown vs. "phoning it in", right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Danny Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 So you're asking us to choose between theatrically overblown vs. "phoning it in", right? Exactly! Hey, I'd like to be entertained as well as informed. Bruni's review definitely contains a bit of corn, but so does the place he's reviewing. It's an easy read from start to finish, and I learned something about the chef and his wacky ways. On the other hand, Tom is so enamored of the pastry chef, he never even explains who Ann Cashion is! And his references (NASCAR-esque, little black dresses) are simply puzzling or weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 I noticed that he didn't mention who Ann Cashion is, but maybe it's because Johnny's is an already existing restaurant in a new location and the pastry chef is a new addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjsadler Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Is there any other area of artistic expression where the grittiness of the average practitioner is more distantly removed from the prissiness of the average critic? Probably because the grittiness of the kitchen is so distantly removed from the prissiness of the dining room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Slater Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Trash Bruni all you want, but at least read Bruni's NYT review of Lonesome Dove from Wednesday, and compare to TS review of JHS. 'Nuff said. After reading Bruni's reviews, it is always entertaining to read his own personal parodist's take on the review, too. Click -->Bruni Digest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 After reading Bruni's reviews, it is always entertaining to read his own personal parodist's take on the review, too. Click -->Bruni Digest Yes, Bruni Digest is choice. Maybe Miami Danny could start a similar site for Sietsema?And the review of Lonesome Dove went beyond cornpone - the crack about "the Outback and maybe even Brokeback" had me searching the review for info on which night they offer square dancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwertyy Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Ha. Should have known you were a writer/editor. There are few people in the world (and I am one, just not regarding Tom) who can get this exercized at that level of detail, who aren't in the biz. At the next Rox bash we can get together and argue infinitive-splitting and adjective abuse over whatever wine DNWine reccomends. I know, I know. It's my own special little hell. I also give demerits to menus with typos.After a glass of wine, I prefer to discuss the finer points of comma use. That's why people don't invite me to parties anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waitman Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 I know, I know. It's my own special little hell. I also give demerits to menus with typos. Regardless (almost said "irregardless just to tweak you) of their content, my typo-laden posts must cause you physical pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwertyy Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Regardless (almost said "irregardless just to tweak you) of their content, my typo-laden posts must cause you physical pain.Nah. Typos in chat rooms don't bother me. I'm quite sure my own posts feature plenty of misspellings, awkward phrasings, and other mortal CMOS violations. Point being, this is for fun, not for work. I've got different standards for that, thus the frustration with Post reviews.(However, "irregardless" in any context does make me sigh. Ironical, no? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Oh, get a room, you two. The point made above that there are only so many food-friendly adjectives is a good one. I can think of several that I don't want to see describing my appetizer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 I can think of several that I don't want to see describing my appetizer. "Oozing", for example? To me that word connotes, well, open sores, not yumminess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 "Barnyard" and all words associated with it. At least Sietsema avoids "buttery" which Phyllis Richman beat to death during her tenure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Slater Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 (However, "irregardless" in any context does make me sigh. Ironical, no? ) I think "irregardless" has been replaced by the equally excruciating malapropism "not for nothing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmwine Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 "Oozing", for example? To me that word connotes, well, open sores, not yumminess. What if it's oozing cheese? I can see a bias against "suppurating" for sure ... Slater must have seen a bunch of cliches in his time, like halibut "napped in a vibrant lemon verbena sauce." Oh wait, been there, done that ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmwine Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Oh, get a room, you two. I'm thinking I could make this a threesome, and that's really gruesome. What we need here is a serial comma killer ... qwertyy, how do you feel about never/nonetheless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Slater Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 What if it's oozing cheese?I can see a bias against "suppurating" for sure ... Slater must have seen a bunch of cliches in his time, like halibut "napped in a vibrant lemon verbena sauce." Oh wait, been there, done that ... Napped, lapped and tucking into are the three that I detest. A chacun son goût. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHagedorn Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 What if it's oozing cheese?I can see a bias against "suppurating" for sure ... Slater must have seen a bunch of cliches in his time, like halibut "napped in a vibrant lemon verbena sauce." Oh wait, been there, done that ... "Napped" is not exactly a cliche; it refers to an actual technique in which a sauce is carefully applied to something in coats, spoonful by spoonful, to create a specific effect and achieve a particular balance. The word is quite evocative because it induces the reader to conjure the image of someone performing an action that is more refined than, say, ladling or covering. By the way, "napper" is a transitive verb, so the nappee is nappeed "with" a sauce rather than "in" one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 "Napped" is not exactly a cliche; it refers to an actual technique in which a sauce is carefully applied to something in coats, spoonful by spoonful, to create a specific effect and achieve a particular balance.Good point David, it's not fair to fault a writer for using a word that describes a particular technique. An online glossary of french culinary terms defines Napper as: "to completely coat or mask with a sauce" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stretch Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Good point David, it's not fair to fault a writer for using a word that describes a particular technique. An online glossary of french culinary terms defines Napper as: "to completely coat or mask with a sauce"In that case, I can't wait until he next encounters rice, couscous or sabayon and is obliged to use "fluffy" again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jparrott Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 "I tucked into Tom Power's perfectly-seared scallops, oozing with flavor, the perfect pillow for the fluffy nap of dreamy mashed potatoes and wine sauce." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 "I tucked into Tom Power's perfectly-seared scallops, oozing with flavor, the perfect pillow for the fluffy nap of dreamy mashed potatoes and wine sauce."I would call that fluffing. Seriously, Sietsema won a prestigious award this year, which suggests he using those cliches right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwertyy Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 qwertyy, how do you feel about never/nonetheless?I think that if we turn this into a grammar discussion, Don will "tuck" us into a dungeon.Seriously, Sietsema won a prestigious award this year, which suggests he using those cliches right.Seriously, Titanic won the Oscar for best picture in 1998. Award shmaward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Seriously, Titanic won the Oscar for best picture in 1998. Award shmaward. Hey man, I'm not saying that their taste is better than ours, just that the job is much harder than his armchair critics suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmwine Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Good point David, it's not fair to fault a writer for using a word that describes a particular technique. An online glossary of french culinary terms defines Napper as: "to completely coat or mask with a sauce" Oh great, then I've even misused it. Now I have to search out every darn copy of the magazine and cross out "napped with" and scribble "sits in a puddle of .." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jparrott Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 That's "luxuriates in" to you, buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Danny Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 I'm just wondering, after today's 'mini-review' of BLT in The Weekly Dish, if the format of TWD may be changing from general puff piece/press release type info, to full-on rush review? Perhaps the Post is feeling the need to relax their standards in order to get there first? According to Tom, he waits a certain period of time and eats at least several times at a place prior to his reviews. I guess that kind of seems quaint these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jparrott Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 And to you restaurateurs out there, does this new and improved TWD provide useful feedback that allows you to improve in time for the full-on WaPo mag review? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonRocks Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 And to you restaurateurs out there, does this new and improved TWD provide useful feedback that allows you to improve in time for the full-on WaPo mag review? I may start issuing insta-reviews of new places just so Tom and Todd stop. Those two are better served being the critics of record, not being first out of the block. Tom's review of Le Paradou should be a model for him to follow in the future. A police officer once told me, "you can't outrun a radio," and I think the public would benefit if Tom and Todd would both stop trying to do so. Not to mention that restaurants wouldn't be putting on the 90-day push, only to drastically change when the initial review season has ended. Who cares how good BLT is right now? It's six months from now that really matters. And print journalists have only one shot to get it right. Best for them to be leisurely and accurate than quick-to-the-draw and wrong. Cheers, Rocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meaghan Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 And print journalists have only one shot to get it right. Best for them to be leisurely and accurate than quick-to-the-draw and wrong.Cheers, Rocks. What do you mean? Newspapers and magazines have websites --that's where most people go these days. Tears, Megz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielK Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Who cares how good BLT is right now? It's six months from now that really matters. And print journalists have only one shot to get it right. Best for them to be leisurely and accurate than quick-to-the-draw and wrong. This is what's always killed me about their rush to quick reviews for new "significant" restaurants. We all know that most of these places are much different 6 months after opening, yet they are unlikely to re-review the place for YEARS. Meanwhile, the review, which could easily understate the quality of a place by several points on their respective rating scales, sits out there chasing off diners for a very long time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackers Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 When Tom came onto dr.com to chat with us last year I asked him about that and about updating the website: How often will you go back to check that your former reviews are still accurate? For instance, will it be sooner if you get word that something has gone seriously downhill or uphill, and will the star rating be updated on the website more than annually if that turns out to be the case? He graciously addressed the former, but did not mention updating reviews (or star ratings) on the website. I agree with Meaghan that this would be very useful - an interim measure between print reviews and/or annual dining guides. [something as simple as an "Alert" below the existing website City Guide restaurant review would help. e.g. to mention a new chef, new direction in the menu, new pricing structure, new corkage policy etc.] I make it a point to drop by previously-reviewed restaurants as much as my time and expense account allow. If there are major changes, I might re-review a place, as I did with Kinkead's and Vidalia. Otherwise, I can write about any new findings on my weekly Wednesday chat. ... Maybe Tom would be nice enough to come back for another chat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmwine Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I'm just wondering, after today's 'mini-review' of BLT in The Weekly Dish, if the format of TWD may be changing from general puff piece/press release type info, to full-on rush review? Perhaps the Post is feeling the need to relax their standards in order to get there first? According to Tom, he waits a certain period of time and eats at least several times at a place prior to his reviews. I guess that kind of seems quaint these days? Tom has frequently visited a restaurant immediately after opening to give an "amuse" of sorts in TWD. It's the newsy part of his job. Then he waits before making a "formal" review visit. I don't think he's doing anyone a disservice this way. I can't think of the name of the place right now, but there was one in Vienna earlier this year that IIRC he wrote a disparaging TWD, and when the review came out 6-8 weeks later, things had calmed down and he was able to write more favorably. As for the "rush" reviews as Kliman and Sietsema try to outdo each other, that could be a reason - ahem - to look at reviews in other publications that are not trying to rush things and scoop anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliveDC Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I keep meaning to ask this in a chat, but I could have sworn Tom used to give a place three months before reviewing. I could be mistaken. Now he regularly says one month. Is my memory failing me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonRocks Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Tom Sietsema: Well, I'm sitting on a VERY JUICY piece of gossip, but I can't confirm it right now. All I'm getting from the owner of the Big Deal Restaurant is a "no comment." So. Which beloved restaurant would YOU hate to see close? I guaranTEE Tom's piece of gossip isn't as juicy as what I heard today. Wow. And nobody has asked me to keep anything quiet yet, either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakegwinn Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I guaranTEE Tom's piece of gossip isn't as juicy as what I heard today.Wow. And nobody has asked me to keep anything quiet yet, either... I suggest getting it out before somebody does ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdt Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I keep meaning to ask this in a chat, but I could have sworn Tom used to give a place three months before reviewing. I could be mistaken. Now he regularly says one month. Is my memory failing me? Nope. I remember that little factiod myself. I wonder if I can find it on Google? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waitman Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Nope. I remember that little factiod myself. I wonder if I can find it on Google? Or search the Post directly. ETA -- though sometimes google searches work better than the Post's internal search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngfood Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Ok, I'll bite... I guaranTEE Tom's piece of gossip isn't as juicy as what I heard today.Wow. And nobody has asked me to keep anything quiet yet, either... Then surely you should come out with it already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jparrott Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I guaranTEE Tom's piece of gossip isn't as juicy as what I heard today.Todd Kliman, PGA Tour player next year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TedE Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 This week: a sampling of soups But ... no pho?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPW Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 This week: a sampling of soupsBut ... no pho?!?! The beef noodle soup at Joe's is pretty pho-like. Take away the chili oil and you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TedE Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 The beef noodle soup at Joe's is pretty pho-like. Take away the chili oil and you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. I guess you're right (confession: I've never been to Joe's), but as I was reading I kept expecting the next entry to be about a place in Seven Corners. Tom really does seem to love his pho, and those places get a lot of press from him, so maybe he decided to spread the wealth. edit: errr, thanks, JG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwertyy Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 And a $19 bowl of soup at Mourayo. Is goat really that expensive? What makes this stuff so precious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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